AP African African American Studies—the "controversial" AP course being piloted in schools across the country, is far more interesting than the headlines it's made. Antoinette Dempsey-Waters, a Virginia History teacher and member of the course's development committee, joins the show to talk about why this course will be so impactful, how it was developed, and what the public discourse was truly about.
Read more about AP African American Studies: https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-really-happens-ap-african-american-studies
Antoinette : When students take AP African-American Studies, my hope is that they will walk away with a level of respect and admiration for people who sacrificed and gave everything and received absolutely nothing in return.
Natieka : Hello, and welcome to School Me, the National Education Association's podcast dedicated to helping educators [00:00:30] thrive at every stage of their careers. I'm your host, Natieka Samuels. For many of us, the first time we'd heard about the development of an AP African-American Studies course was when controversy erupted in Florida and Governor Ron DeSantis sought to ban the course.
This important new course for high school students is more than the headlines can capture. So, today we have Antoinette Dempsey-Waters, a Virginia history teacher and member of the AP African-American Studies Development Committee, joining the show [00:01:00] to talk about why this course is so important, how it was developed, and what the controversy was truly about. Thank you so much for joining us today, Antoinette.
Antoinette : I'm so excited to be here.
Natieka : Let's start with a little bit about yourself. Where are you currently working, and what is your position?
Antoinette : I am a high school history teacher. I teach AP US history and AP African-American Studies in Arlington Public Schools at Wakefield High School. I've been [00:01:30] there for about eight years. I've been teaching for 19 years total. Previous to that, I was at TC Williams for a very, very, very long time. And then, my first four years of teaching, I actually was in DC Public Schools.
Natieka : Why did you decide that you wanted to become a teacher?
Antoinette : It was honestly in high school. I had an amazing experience. I had wonderful educators, and [00:02:00] I had a principal at that time, Mr. Duncan, who I was just pedaling around the office as an office aide because I had so many free periods. I was done most of my matriculation through the K-12 system. And so, I only had maybe one or two real classes, as we would call them, that were needed to graduate.
And so, with my free time, I spent time in the [00:02:30] main office, I would help them with random things, delivering passes, filing stuff if they needed me to file certain things that weren't confidential, sending out messages to teachers, handing it out by paper. So, just being an all around runner. And he saw this kind of light in me that I was able to help students when they came in, it was really easy for me to help them and answer their questions.
And so, he asked me to [00:03:00] begin a tutoring club that would create a mentorship bridge between seniors and freshmen. Because what he had been noticing was that there was a kind of learning curve for those freshmen to really grasp and catch on to the routine of high school. And so, I said, "Sure. Sounds like something fun." And I went around asking my friends, "Hey, do you want some community service hours?" Because at Montgomery County, where [00:03:30] I grew up, community service was required in order to graduate.
So, I had tons of friends who still needed their hours. And so, I started this mentorship group. Mr. Duncan gave me the names of the freshmen who he wanted me to reach out to along with my friends. And so, my friends and I just went old school, finding the kids during lunch, meeting them and then inviting them on Saturdays to join us for this tutoring/mentorship.
And so, it actually [00:04:00] worked out really well. The name of the organization, we called it Each One Teach One, and it was kind of my very first experience teaching. After that, I said, "Okay. I think this is my gift." And I went to Temple and majored in secondary education as well as history. And so, the social sciences more so focusing on so that I could just have that breadth of courses. And it's been a phenomenal experience ever since.
Natieka : And [00:04:30] you're now an AP history teacher, AP US history, and the newer AP African-American studies course that we will spend a lot of time talking about very soon. Why did you want to teach history?
Antoinette : I always loved history. That was my favorite subject. When I was in eighth grade, I read a book, Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry by Mildred Taylor, and it was a story about [00:05:00] the Jim Crow South and the time right after reconstruction. And then, after I read that, I then went on to read Let The Circle Be Unbroken, her other book. And that put me on this trajectory of love for just history. And so, for me, I didn't think African-American history was separate from history. I was just like, "This is history. So, there's nothing separate. Facts [00:05:30] or facts. History is history."
And so, I then became my family reporter. I would sit down with the elders of my family and ask them about their life, "Tell me about this, tell me about that." And I just became this young lady who really loved history and I asked my family all about it because there is this special place in oral history that I think a lot of people don't really honor. Those stories of our ancestors [00:06:00] and those who came before. And a lot of African-American history is through those stories. Because for so long, so many people didn't have the opportunity or the time, honestly the time, to write them down because they were working.
And so, these stories that needed to be told about where we were from, how we overcame our beautiful story of perseverance, that was something that I loved to do with my family. [00:06:30] And then, I went to college and researched more and just found my way loving this discipline.
Natieka : Now it's time to get into it. For many of us, the first time that we even heard about an AP African-American Studies course coming into existence is when we heard that Florida Governor Ron DeSantis was trying to ban the course in the state. And we're going to get into that a little bit later, but I just wanted to talk a bit about the course, [00:07:00] what is it? And why do you feel like it's so important to add this to the suite of AP offerings for high school students?
Antoinette : This course is like 10 years in the making, and that's one thing I don't think a lot of people know. There have been folks who have been at College Board who've been trying to get an African-American Studies course or history course. It was just like, "Which one was it going to be?" Because a studies course is something that's very new, it's never been done [00:07:30] as far as AP goes in College Board. And so, it was the right time. And in 2021, it all happens.
In 2021, at the very beginning of the year, we received emails asking about syllabi. And then, in mid 2021, there were a few of us who were having conversations about what should we name the course if we were to have this course. And so, everybody caught up to [00:08:00] something that we had been doing for years and we had been creating and designing for years based off of what current high school teachers were already teaching. Those few who were creating their own African-American history courses and African-American Studies courses and looking at the courses that were in colleges and various universities across the country.
And so, when everybody found out about it, the train had left the station and we were just on a roll. [00:08:30] So, the journey began in early 2021, and then we really started put it together. I would say we ran a marathon. Actually, we didn't run a marathon, we ran a sprint. It was the quickest 10 miles ever. And so, we were putting pen to paper, we were putting resources together, we were in teams and designing and saying, "Hey, what does this look like? What about this? What about that? What about [00:09:00] these resources?" And it was this small group of folks just putting it together, putting our brain power together.
And so, the journey was really early. It's been a very long journey, arduous. We have worked meticulously. And through that time period, we've gone through lots of different additions of the course because we took lots of feedback. We took feedback from professors from across the country where we had a giant [00:09:30] meeting where we said, "Hey, the course is just too big based on looking at what teachers are already doing, who are teaching their own African-American history or African-American studies courses and what colleges require in their intro courses." When we put it all together, it just was too big.
And so, we had to ask, "All right. Let's look at this. What will you give three credits? What's required [00:10:00] for an intro?" And so, from there, we took that list, looked at what every single person said, "Here are the required items that should be taught. This is the essential knowledge. And these are the skills that are necessary for students who are going to do this work, who are going to study this material."
And so, from there, in 2022... That was in March. By June of 2022, [00:10:30] we had to be ready with pilot one, and that was fast. Taking their edits to creating a full-fledged framework. Which is what it is, it's a framework, teachers can add items, but what we give them is a framework and the essential knowledge that is required to fulfill a college level African-American Studies course.
Natieka : How do you see this course when it eventually gets to [00:11:00] the national scale? Impacting students emotionally and intellectually even, especially when they're confronting and critiquing facts that may challenge their prior knowledge of America's past? I think that that's such a big thing that we're talking about when we're talking about teaching, the truth and honesty and education is just that there's a certain way that things have been taught up to now, and that's not necessarily always the full story. So, how do you think that this course will [00:11:30] play a role in challenging people's ideas of America's past?
Antoinette : First, we must rid ourselves of American nostalgia. At times, people like to hear a pretty story. But sometimes the story isn't so pretty. It's a story of perseverance. It's a story of in spite of. And I think that when students take AP African-American Studies, my [00:12:00] hope is that they will walk away with a level of respect and admiration for people who sacrificed and gave everything and received absolutely nothing in return. And to respect the descendants of the 30%.
Because I don't think people understand that only 30% of enslaved children live to adulthood. So, [00:12:30] those are the best of the best. 30% is a very small amount. That's really strong. Those are the true perseveres. And I think, emotionally, that's where it will challenge people. Because it's like, "Wow. 30% and in spite of. Wow. What an amazing story, what an amazing journey." And that's that whole thing, the journey of America, the truth of America. And I think that's what this course [00:13:00] is supposed to do.
I don't think it challenges anything. I think it tells people the truth because we need to know who really built this country. When people say, "They're coming to America for opportunity." And that this is the land of opportunity, we have to understand who created those opportunities. And so, when we start to think about things, we have to understand the people who created the whole system. We have to understand who created the wealth [00:13:30] of America. How did America become so wealthy? How did cotton become king, which was 50% of the GDP of this country, 50% created by 6% of its population, nonetheless. 6%.
And so, we have to honor those people, the 6% who created 50% of the wealth. 50. And so, that's a lot. And when we look at respecting those people and admiring [00:14:00] those people and honoring those people, that's what AP AFAM is. AP African-American Studies is about honoring those who gave for nothing. And this is their story, we have to hear it, because that's a way to honor them. That's a way to remember them, to say, "You know what? We respect you. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunities that you gave everyone who's here."
And so, hopefully, that's the way the course will [00:14:30] change the narrative. I don't think it challenged it, I think it's changed it because it needs to be changed. We need to know whose shoulders the framers stood on, how they were fed, who fed them, who clothed them, who put shelter above their heads. We need to know the names of those people because without them, the framers would not have been there to create it.
Natieka : And while you were going through that development process, did it feel like you all were working on... Of [00:15:00] course it probably felt like you were working on something important, but did it feel like you were working on something big and controversial when you heard that states like Florida were attempting to ban the course before it really even got off the ground? How did you respond to that, and how did you and the rest of the committee see that?
Antoinette : To me, I saw it mostly as noise. I think that more so I was taken aback. Because [00:15:30] for us, this course was always about honoring the past and helping children understand this beautiful story of perseverance. It was about the past and the future, having our children respect the people of the diaspora and know the journey. And so, I think when people called it controversy, I just called it noise. To be honest, there have always been politicians who've tried to make their names [00:16:00] on the bones of our ancestors. And so, it wasn't really a surprise, it was just noise.
I felt sad more so for the children who were already in the course, who were taking it, who had planned on getting credit for it, because we had some of our early folks, like FAMU and Duke, who were ready to give it credit right out the gate if you just took the course and just trying to support us as [00:16:30] much as they could. And so, I think I was just really sad for the children. And I think a lot of times people posture themselves for their own political gain, but they sacrifice our children for that. And so, I think it was more so noise and sadness for me.
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Natieka : [00:17:00] And it sounds like when Ron DeSantis was talking about the course and supposedly exposing what was within it, that there is a disconnect between what was shown in the media at that time and what was actually happening at the classroom level. So, can you clarify the misconceptions surrounding the materials that were presented by him and how the finalized [00:17:30] curriculum differs from these maybe initial drafts that caused this, quote unquote, "controversy"?
Antoinette : The thing is that we all signed confidentiality clauses, and this is a pilot course. By it being a pilot course, the material is under lock and key, and College Board has great attorneys. When you are a part of the pilot, the material is owned by College Board. You're not allowed to publish that material at all. [00:18:00] That is illegal. What was published was a brainstorm from March of 2022. That's the document that came out. That was like a brainstorm, and everybody knows a brainstorm has every possible idea in the world. And so, the brainstorm was what we, the development committee, came up with as loose learning objectives, loose essential knowledge and loose primary and secondary sources [00:18:30] to reinforce the essential knowledge, and loose skills. Like, what are the skills that an African-American Studies scholar must have? So, everything was very loose at that meeting.
And so, that document was probably given to... It was about 200 professors that came. And it may have gotten to maybe about 300 people. I don't know. It was a lot of people who received that original document. But that was not a lock and key document like the actual pilot one guide, which that's [00:19:00] illegal to publish it. And so, that could not be leaked. And so, what was shown to the media was a brainstorm, which is really funny. First, I thought it was funny because I'm like, "That's our brainstorm. What are people talking about? That's not the pilot framework. That's not a framework."
And I think people didn't understand what a framework actually is. I don't think a lot of people have looked at how you write a curriculum, what an actual curriculum looks like. For me, that's why I said it was a [00:19:30] lot of noise because it was a show. It wasn't what was really going on. And so, I just turned off the news because I was like, "This is just noise. They don't even have the real pilot guide."
Natieka : So, let's talk about these pilots. Can you talk to me about how many different courses were being taught and how the courses were received?
Antoinette : Pilot one, we are what I call the OG 60. The 60 teachers from across the country. College [00:20:00] Board found some of the most amazing educators on this planet. The OG 60 are just magnificent people. And so, we were together the very first year at Howard. It was an amazing fellowship of the very first 60. Pilot one, we were flying a plane while still under construction, and I can [00:20:30] truly say that. And the educators were amazing. They are teachers of the years, history teachers of the years. They are just everything. And so, when you're with a group of superstars, you can give them anything and they are going to make lemonade out of any lemons that you give.
So, the OG 60 are a part of the team of people who are now the leaders of pilot number two, because [00:21:00] it was only a few K-12 teachers on the development committee. And so, those few of us put together the few resources, but we needed the OG 60 during year one because we all have to now develop all of this stuff together and figure out what works, what doesn't work, what's too hard, what's too big, what do we need to cut, what documents do we need to change, how do we need to change things, source notes, things of that nature, just like the logistics of the course.
Pilot number two is [00:21:30] huge. It is over 700 schools. We went from 60 to 700. It was exponential growth. And pilot two, we've got a plane, it's put together, we've got seats on it, we just don't have no seat belts. So, if there's an accident, hold onto what you can, that seat is going to save you. But we have a plane, we know where we're going. We'll have seat belts after this year. And so, pilot two, [00:22:00] the teachers have a little bit more support because, of course, remember those OG 60, they are now the leaders of everything.
They are the consultants, they're the go-to folks. They're in charge of all of the different office hours that we'll have. And they're really the people who the current pilot two teachers, who've never taught this course, are leaning into. How did you do this? How did you do that? And the originators of it. But pilot two [00:22:30] teachers have to do a lot of creating because that's the nature of being a part of a pilot. Being a part of a pilot requires you to go back to your books, your educational pedagogy, you've got to get back down to it. You've got to go to Blooms, you've got to go back to Vygotski and remember, how do we scaffold this? How do I scaffold these skills? What am I doing?
You really have to do all of the footwork because this is not a course in a box. [00:23:00] You are actually creating and designing the stuff that's in the box for the next set of teachers who will be in operational. So, that's why we needed a giant pilot, because we had this feeling that a lot of teachers were going to need a course in a box, versus the skeleton that we could give the OG 60. Because again, most of the OG 60 already had done an African-American Studies course, they have a background in AFAM, and they [00:23:30] have that background in curriculum as well. So, the OG 60 were a very specifically chosen group of teachers for their skills and talents and amazingness.
Natieka : Given the challenges and noise surrounding the course framework, how do you envision teachers and students engaging with this course in the upcoming school year when it becomes operational nationally in the 2024 to '25 year?
Antoinette : My hope [00:24:00] is they engage with it with an open mind and an open heart. To teach African-American Studies requires a level of discernment as well as a level of humility, because the material that is in the framework is not for folks who just, "I think I know [00:24:30] something." It's about scholarship. It's about skills. And I think teachers need to come into this with that open heart, that open mind and humility to know that some of this material you don't know, and that's okay. You're going to have to do the work now. You're going to have to do the background. You're going to have to do the research. You're going to have to take the courses.
Because the great part about it is College Board has given courses for teachers who don't have that background [00:25:00] in AFAM, but really want to teach AFAM. And so, they're giving free courses through the Gilder Lehrman Institute, which is amazing, in African-American Studies. And they're helping teachers along the way to get confident in the material. But you have to have that level of humility to say, "I don't know this."
For students, I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I teach AP AFAM. It's such an exciting moment for every child [00:25:30] when they walk through that room and they're like, "Oh, my gosh, Ms. Waters. Let me tell you what I told my parents." Or to see their parents and say, "Oh, my gosh. If my child does not come home preaching every day about what they learned."
I'm just tired but I'm excited for them, because they're become preachy. My kids have become very preachy now. They're on their soap boxes. I think for our kids, though, they're going to come in eager to learn. And [00:26:00] so, the teacher has to have that open mind and that willingness and that humility to be ready because the kids are ready, and I'm excited.
Natieka : I don't keep up with all of the AP courses that are happening, and hearing about a new one that can really give the different perspective is really exciting. Switching to a little more generic topics, I hear that you are a Frederick Douglass super fan, so can you share a bit about [00:26:30] him or maybe some of your other favorite figures from Black History that you maybe give the most intros talk when you're talking to people about African-American history?
Antoinette : I am a huge Frederick Douglas fan. One of the reasons why is because in his very first narrative, he gives us the frame of the African-American experience in America, in his very first narrative. It is very short, [00:27:00] but it is probably this raw, cathartic narrative. And he talks about Black lives mattering. He speaks about that when he talks about Demby, when he talks about his wife's cousin. He gives us the journey about Black women when he talks about his Aunt Hester and the two young ladies on Philpot Street.
He talks to us about education and the value [00:27:30] of it when he says the lesson he learned from his master was the power of education and he knew why he had to have it. He tells us how we get our own freedom, taking it into our own hands, and sometimes in this revolution, we must take this into our own hands and get our own freedom. And so, I think he gives us all of these different frames to our journey in America [00:28:00] with this very short narrative. And that's why, for me, he's amazing.
But then, when we go forward, I think a lot of people have some discussions today that are old discussions. For example, a lot of people want to talk about reparations. Well, all they have to do is go to Callie House. She had legislation. She had the Ex-Slave Pension Fund. Of course she was put in jail for it, but she sure did have it right there in Congress. [00:28:30] She ended up in Lorton. We all know why. But Callie House was talking about reparations, had folks signing in petitions, had a full organization. Because guess what? The enslavers got it. Enslavers got it. Ask the folks at Washington DC, they got it. Robert E. Lee? His family got something too.
Folks got reparations. It's just not the people who you think. France? People should really look into how much money France got from Haiti. And honestly, they need to look at the [00:29:00] date Haiti stopped paying reparations. Yeah. Those are some things people need to look into. The British, how much reparations did they pay the enslavers? I don't know if any enslaved folks in Jamaica received any money, or Guyana or The Bahamas. I mean, I'm just saying.
So, Callie House was right there on the cusp of it early on. And a lot of people don't know her name. Why not? The argument over [00:29:30] reparations has been there since we got our freedom. We've been arguing for it. I'm just wondering why we haven't gotten it. I'm just saying. Nannie Helen Burroughs, a lot of people don't talk about her, phenomenal educator. I adore all educators. But Nannie Helen Burroughs, a lot of people fail to realize that she is one of the very early proponents, just like Sojourner Truth when she talked about Ain't I a Woman?
Nannie Helen Burroughs really starts to talk about and bring [00:30:00] up African-American women and where we were in intersectionality, how we were in this open space of race, or the social construct of race, because it's not real. And gender. And so, Nannie Helen Burroughs, people don't know who she is. They really should. A. Philip Randolph, they were really afraid of him. He was going to have the very first march on Washington. And they were like, "Can we negotiate [00:30:30] with y'all? Because we sort of maybe don't want y'all all to come to Washington." He was like, "Okay. Make sure y'all get my folks paid. We want to get paid too."
And so, I think a lot of people don't know these folks names. And you're like, "Why?" They made the system change. People were afraid of them. When somebody jails you for your ideas, you know you're about to change a whole system and they are afraid of you. And there's countless other people. [00:31:00] I mean, everybody has their favorite person. Everybody has the person who they are the president of their fan club. And so, I just hope that teachers share these people with their children so that children can understand the power of one and the story of perseverance because that's African-American Studies, it's this whole story of perseverance. How amazing.
Natieka : I feel like I'm in your class right now. It's great.
Antoinette : Thank you.
Natieka : [00:31:30] Last question coming right up. What is keeping you hopeful right now?
Antoinette : My children. Literally, I got a text message on my phone and it's from one of my old students who was like, "Ms. Waters, where are you? I'm at school visiting you. Myself, Alyssa and Tori, we're looking for you." Your kids stalk you. My students currently are magnificent. [00:32:00] The joy, the empowerment that they have. I love seeing them get their own voice, to be okay beating your own drum. I really want my children to understand that it's okay to be the only one standing on that branch. It's fine. It's okay because you are powerful in your one voice. Your one voice can change this country. There is a power of one. And so, I think [00:32:30] they always keep me hopeful. They keep me going every day. They're the reason why I show up. They are magnificent.
Natieka : I think that's a perfect place to stop. Thank you so much, Antoinette, for jumping on the show today. I learned a lot, even in this short amount of time, and I hope everybody listening did too.
Antoinette : Thank you for having me, Natieka. It's been an honor. I am so excited and so happy to share this course with you and all of your listeners. Thank you so much.
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